Neal Caffrey
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Status: It's complicated
About Me: Charming, sexy and sophisticated, Neal Caffrey is one of the world's greatest con artists. After escaping from prison - and getting caught by the man who put him there in the first place, Agent Peter Burke - Neal strikes a bargain: In exchange for his freedom, Neal will help the FBI catch the most elusive White Collar criminals in the country.
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Post by Neal Caffrey on May 8, 2013 13:39:33 GMT -5
A lot of people have lists, long, endless lists of their pet peeves, do's, don'ts, likes and dislikes. More and more of late, I see those lists carrying over to the likes/dislikes that fall into a category that is sexual in nature.
For the former types of lists, I can see where some would want to know, upfront if the players will be compatible in style of play, IE how long do you usually post, do you add markers to indicate when you have started or stopped your post, etc, etc. Maybe I'm old fashioned, or maybe I'm simply on of those who doesn't give a flying rats ass, so long as you can string together a coherent sentence and don't feel the need to rewrite War and Peace, while putting me to sleep in the process. (Yes, I have literally fallen asleep, while waiting for some one to finish posting their seven to fifteen block post on their character's, dress, hair color, what they had for breakfast or dinner that occurred several hours before the scene at hand, color of their bowel movement or if they'd even had one that day... But I digress. Back to the subject at hand.)
For those who write up the latter types of lists, their sexual do's and don'ts, or those who have those 'rabbit hole' pages.... (and you people just flat out fucking scare me, by the way. I always expect some prison rape scene to follow.) There is such a thing called over sharing. You people have mastered it. I avoid you like the black plague that wiped out much of England in the middle ages.
What happened to the art of entering a room, and throwing into play without having one tiny shred of knowledge of the other character, beyond the most basic? What happened to those who held the talent to show their character through word craft? And when I say word craft, I do not mean the ability to inundate the reader with facts. One should never tell who their character is. One should show their audience who their character is, through motion, mannerisms, gestures.
I myself have fallen prey to the self description of my character. Telling what he's wearing in a dull and .... even in my own head, monotone style, rather than showing. The 'Neal was wearing, such and such, ad nauseum as everything from shoes to his hat is described in intimate detail...' rather than oh say... 'Neal paused before the window, checking his appearance in the reflection found in a shop window on Fifth Avenue. Once assured the navy suit he wore was up to his exacting standards, he entered the establishment.'
Less is often more. There was a time when role players understood that and because of that, chose more engaging, descriptive ways to paint a picture, rather than inundating the reader with detail that likely could be left on the cutting room floor.
I am sure I will readdress this at a later date, add more, change a few things, but for now, that is all. The show's over. You can go home now.
Bueler.... Bueler....
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Post by Alessandro Bellarmine on May 8, 2013 15:12:10 GMT -5
Wow. That seems rather judgemental IMHO. Not only would I be out of the running for roleplay with you and your characters according to what you've stated, I'm one of those people. Just because people like myself have a lot of detail going with a description of the characters we play, and also go as far as having a Rabbit Hole (or an F-List, like I do) doesn't make them freaks or people to be avoided at all costs.
Thats what I got out of what I read of your thread, and I am very sorry if that wasn't what you were attempting to communicate--but thats what I saw and read.
Maybe people like myself have these endless lists because A. We've been burned by others in the past. B. Had difficulty with other people accepting the word no. or, C. Are completely jaded from dealing with the role play BS on AOL Chat. Maybe its all three, like it is with myself. You see, there's always much more than meets the eye.
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Neal Caffrey
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Status: It's complicated
About Me: Charming, sexy and sophisticated, Neal Caffrey is one of the world's greatest con artists. After escaping from prison - and getting caught by the man who put him there in the first place, Agent Peter Burke - Neal strikes a bargain: In exchange for his freedom, Neal will help the FBI catch the most elusive White Collar criminals in the country.
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Post by Neal Caffrey on May 8, 2013 16:15:07 GMT -5
And that's pretty much my standpoint. Burnt out on all the criteria that must be met, in order for people to play, rather than just playing. And those I have come across, in my experience, I am not saying all, but those with the 'rabbit hole' pages are, in my experience, here not to write stories but to write smut. I am not saying all who have those pages are solely looking for that, but that is the impression those pages give.
Sexual preferences, in my opinion, humble or otherwise, should be kept personal between the players if and when the writing reaches that point. Otherwise you may as well take out a full page porno ad; in essence, that is all a 'rabbit hole' page is.
I am not saying it makes them freaks, simply that they are obviously looking for something far different from what I am. I am here for the stories. The creative talent that doesn't have to involve the use of genitalia.
Again, this is simply my opinion and it could well be the generation in which I was raised. I am a good deal older than most role players. I was raised in the age when folks thought feeding your kids Corn Flakes would keep them from masturbating and duck and cover was a game played to teach kids how to 'survive' a nuclear blast thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis.
** As for descriptive, there is a difference between being descriptive, and just tossing words in for the long post, that may not even belong there. I even gave an example of such. I don't post long wordy posts. I try to paint a picture in as few words as possible. Having some experience with journalistic writing, one has to be aware of word count. Space is at a premium in newsprint and magazines where advertising takes up more space than the writing does. As the years increase between that experience and my role play, I find I fall into bad habits, which is what that example I gave was made to illustrate. I would rather emulate John Branch of the New York Times, than John Norman.
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Jane Doe
Junior Member
...a diamond that wants to stay coal...
Posts: 68
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Post by Jane Doe on May 8, 2013 17:37:48 GMT -5
For someone who says there is too much criteria for people to play you sure are making a lot of assumptions, generalizations, and tieing them up in a neat bow of "not my cup of tea" as if there is one singular perception to what's the ideal way to play and present play.
I for one don't think there is anything wrong with smut writing, action writing, story writing, with short posts like yours, or long posts like mine. What ever floats 'your' boat; it's not like I have to paddle anyone's canoe if I don't want to... and neither do you.
Thanks for posting this though, at least I know where you stand and that it's probably a good idea to keep our RPs to a minimum if at all. Is that going to be a problem in this SL or should I walk myself out?
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Post by Alessandro Bellarmine on May 8, 2013 19:05:45 GMT -5
And that's pretty much my standpoint. Burnt out on all the criteria that must be met, in order for people to play, rather than just playing. And those I have come across, in my experience, I am not saying all, but those with the 'rabbit hole' pages are, in my experience, here not to write stories but to write smut. I am not saying all who have those pages are solely looking for that, but that is the impression those pages give. Sexual preferences, in my opinion, humble or otherwise, should be kept personal between the players if and when the writing reaches that point. Otherwise you may as well take out a full page porno ad; in essence, that is all a 'rabbit hole' page is. I am not saying it makes them freaks, simply that they are obviously looking for something far different from what I am. I am here for the stories. The creative talent that doesn't have to involve the use of genitalia. Again, this is simply my opinion and it could well be the generation in which I was raised. I am a good deal older than most role players. I was raised in the age when folks thought feeding your kids Corn Flakes would keep them from masturbating and duck and cover was a game played to teach kids how to 'survive' a nuclear blast thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis. ** As for descriptive, there is a difference between being descriptive, and just tossing words in for the long post, that may not even belong there. I even gave an example of such. I don't post long wordy posts. I try to paint a picture in as few words as possible. Having some experience with journalistic writing, one has to be aware of word count. Space is at a premium in newsprint and magazines where advertising takes up more space than the writing does. As the years increase between that experience and my role play, I find I fall into bad habits, which is what that example I gave was made to illustrate. I would rather emulate John Branch of the New York Times, than John Norman. Its not a standpoint really, its an opinion, and it pretty much categorizes the roleplayers that do have a Rabbit Hole or an F-List into something "less than" people that enjoy writing good scenes into porno or smut writing, which is another element of role play. I think my "personal choice" to have a detailed profile and a Rabbit Hole accents my role play abilities. If people find the profile interesting, then they have the opportunity to engage in quality role play with my character, and they oftentimes do. It does not reflect badly upon me or my character the fact that there is a F-List on my Bebo with preferences one iota.
You've made a horrible assumption in believing players such as myself who do have these sites are only looking for one thing. I in fact, look for compatibility based on the descriptiveness of the role play, the fact it is turn based, multiple paragraph, and is plot based before even considering jumping into a sexual scene based on an F-List. I too look for stories, not those based on genitalia. I state it on the OOC page on Alessandro's webpage, and I state it in IM when I am about to engage in role play with another. This is based on my "personal choice."
FYI, I am 46 years old and much older than many who play here, all the people I've played with have been nothing but happy to role play with my characters whether or not I have an F-List. It is entirely their choice to read the site as well as my Bebo if they want to know the information that's there. Its called freedom of choice. It's simple. You either choose to read it or you don't. If they want to know nothing about my character before engaging, they don't. If they want to know the basics, they find out in role play anyway. There is not a single case of down and dirty, unless it comes up in the role play later down the line. I hate to say this, but for someone coming from your generation, you seem rather close minded and tossing out way too many people like myself through your generalizations as "smut writers."
It is a prejudiced opinion if you ask me. I agree with Tu. With an opinion like yours, my role play will be kept to a minimum if at all. I think this SL should be open to all who have the ability to write and create. Even people who have Rabbit Holes and F-Lists can write and create a scene, and I've played with hundreds of them.
Coming from a player born in the "Summer of Love," opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
-Laurie
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Neal Caffrey
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Status: It's complicated
About Me: Charming, sexy and sophisticated, Neal Caffrey is one of the world's greatest con artists. After escaping from prison - and getting caught by the man who put him there in the first place, Agent Peter Burke - Neal strikes a bargain: In exchange for his freedom, Neal will help the FBI catch the most elusive White Collar criminals in the country.
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Post by Neal Caffrey on May 8, 2013 19:21:29 GMT -5
For someone who says there is too much criteria for people to play you sure are making a lot of assumptions, generalizations, and tieing them up in a neat bow of "not my cup of tea" as if there is one singular perception to what's the ideal way to play and present play. I for one don't think there is anything wrong with smut writing, action writing, story writing, with short posts like yours, or long posts like mine. What ever floats 'your' boat; it's not like I have to paddle anyone's canoe if I don't want to... and neither do you. Thanks for posting this though, at least I know where you stand and that it's probably a good idea to keep our RPs to a minimum if at all. Is that going to be a problem in this SL or should I walk myself out? My intention was not to offend anyone. It was simply to state, those things which I find to be a draw back to play. I think in this day and age, we talk about what we want out of role play more than actually doing it. If we could simply leave all the prerequisites at the door, and simply play, we would all have much better luck at it. I can't tell you the number of times people have told me that I have to fill x number of boxes each post, just to be able to play with them. Or have had people tell me that I have to use an indicator at the end of my posts, to which they usually get a swift, 'no writer, in any book, types in a character to let you know when a paragraph is done'. The whole point of this editorial was to express a desire to get back to the basics. Fuck post lengths, fuck the lists, let's just play. There was a time when people did that. Without talking about it before hand, just thrashed hell out of it and let the chips fall where they may. It was fun. There was excitement, drama - IC, comedy, and yes, sex. But no one had to spell out what their safe word was on a web page, hell no one really had to spell it out OOC, for that matter. If there was something that someone was uncomfortable with, it was handled, IC. The shift into sharing too much over the web was a gradual change, that has taken place over a number of years. Perhaps it has more to do with people not wanting to have to reiterate themselves. A point which I can see, but it doesn't negate the fact that we've lost something in the process. That spontaneity which was part of the fun, part of the excitement of role play. Having it all laid out in a web page is like reading the last chapter of a book, first. It's dull, it's boring and it leaves no room for the thrill that comes with the unknown. If this makes me someone that you don't want to play with, there's nothing I can do about that.
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Neal Caffrey
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Status: It's complicated
About Me: Charming, sexy and sophisticated, Neal Caffrey is one of the world's greatest con artists. After escaping from prison - and getting caught by the man who put him there in the first place, Agent Peter Burke - Neal strikes a bargain: In exchange for his freedom, Neal will help the FBI catch the most elusive White Collar criminals in the country.
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Post by Neal Caffrey on May 8, 2013 19:28:10 GMT -5
Its not a standpoint really, its an opinion, and it pretty much categorizes the roleplayers that do have a Rabbit Hole or an F-List into something "less than" people that enjoy writing good scenes into porno or smut writing, which is another element of role play. I think my "personal choice" to have a detailed profile and a Rabbit Hole accents my role play abilities. If people find the profile interesting, then they have the opportunity to engage in quality role play with my character, and they oftentimes do. It does not reflect badly upon me or my character the fact that there is a F-List on my Bebo with preferences one iota.
You've made a horrible assumption in believing players such as myself who do have these sites are only looking for one thing. I in fact, look for compatibility based on the descriptiveness of the role play, the fact it is turn based, multiple paragraph, and is plot based before even considering jumping into a sexual scene based on an F-List. I too look for stories, not those based on genitalia. I state it on the OOC page on Alessandro's webpage, and I state it in IM when I am about to engage in role play with another. This is based on my "personal choice."
FYI, I am 46 years old and much older than many who play here, all the people I've played with have been nothing but happy to role play with my characters whether or not I have an F-List. It is entirely their choice to read the site as well as my Bebo if they want to know the information that's there. Its called freedom of choice. It's simple. You either choose to read it or you don't. If they want to know nothing about my character before engaging, they don't. If they want to know the basics, they find out in role play anyway. There is not a single case of down and dirty, unless it comes up in the role play later down the line. I hate to say this, but for someone coming from your generation, you seem rather close minded and tossing out way too many people like myself through your generalizations as "smut writers."
It is a prejudiced opinion if you ask me. I agree with Tu. With an opinion like yours, my role play will be kept to a minimum if at all. I think this SL should be open to all who have the ability to write and create. Even people who have Rabbit Holes and F-Lists can write and create a scene, and I've played with hundreds of them.
Coming from a player born in the "Summer of Love," opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
-Laurie I have stated, more than once that yes, it is an opinion. I have also said that it does not reflect on all those who use said pages. Again, we do more discussing of role play, than actual role playing. The point of the editorial was to express a desire to move away from that, and back into the 'Just Do It' style of play.
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Neal Caffrey
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Status: It's complicated
About Me: Charming, sexy and sophisticated, Neal Caffrey is one of the world's greatest con artists. After escaping from prison - and getting caught by the man who put him there in the first place, Agent Peter Burke - Neal strikes a bargain: In exchange for his freedom, Neal will help the FBI catch the most elusive White Collar criminals in the country.
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Post by Neal Caffrey on May 8, 2013 20:09:37 GMT -5
As a foot note, in the original post, I did note that I have in fact, found myself guilty of some of these faux pas from time to time. I have inundated the reader with facts, rather than giving description. Therein lay the difference. There is nothing wrong with a long post, so long as it captures the mind.
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Jane Doe
Junior Member
...a diamond that wants to stay coal...
Posts: 68
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Post by Jane Doe on May 9, 2013 10:03:35 GMT -5
It's all subject to the paradox of perception. I understand what you're saying, and even a part of me agrees with you, John. But ultimately I'm not a just-play kind of person. My RPs don't have to be planed, void of surprises, or all kittens and rainbows but I've learned I have more fun when I know the other player and me are on the same page.
You and I are not. It's just that simple. So, I think you also play Mr Sutton(?) and I like that bit story for Jane so I have no intent on just stopping it. I know where you stand so I'll make exceptions for the sake of story until and unless it's not fun...
Which, sometimes what you seem to consider boring and non-useful information to the current story, I actually enjoy reading. This leads your succinct posts to actually tend to make me want to end the scene faster/sooner so I can find someone who gives me more (what I think of as) substance. And that's where I stand...
Happy gaming.
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Ivy LaShanko
New Member
P.I. for Pierce Inc & Freelance Fire Dancer
Posts: 14
Status: Single
Other Half: ... nonexistant? ...
About Me: ♠♦♣♥TROUBLE♥♣♦♠ that's her no matter how you slice it, whether she's looking into you, or you've hired her, trouble follows, finds and fractures around the investigator. Sometimes, it's worth that big Capital T, and sometimes... it's not.
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Post by Ivy LaShanko on May 9, 2013 13:48:15 GMT -5
Yep. I fall into the category of someone John wouldn't/doesn't play with. I don't have a F-list or a Rabbit Hole but I have my own page that goes into detail of my thoughts on different sexual positions in RP. It also, on that same page, explains what I seek in detail which is undoubtedly probably in the "inundated with facts" category.
In real life, I can see for myself whether or not someone's pants are ironed, how many buttons are buttoned, whether or not their wearing a belt and what color or material it is. But in RP, I'm reliant on the other player to give me that information. And because most of the characters I play are detail oriented, I need those details in the RP to play my character to her full potential, which ever one she may be at the time.
... I think where the other piece of the puzzle lays, is a player's "Assumption Comfort Zone."
For example, John's sample writing "Once assured the navy suit he wore was up to his exacting standards, he entered the establishment." He, as a player, is comfortable allowing the other player to fill in the blanks on what his "exacting standards" might actually translate to. And of course, in that character's case, having seen the show White Collar probably helps a lot. lol. But in either case some players, those little details are irrelevant. Like Tu, I'm a "whatever floats your boat" kind of player, though I'm notably less inclined to play with players who don't provide me some of the detail I'm looking for.
In the above example, I wouldn't be comfortable, as the player on the other side, writing a response without knowing what those standards actually were. I'd be thinking...
Does that mean he's wearing a full three piece suit? Tie? Is the tie blue too? Is the shirt navy blue or white? Are they all the same shade of blue or complimenting different shades of blue? Tailored to fit him? His shoes shined or that not part of the suit in his eyes?
You get the idea. I think each player has a different level of what they're okay with. What details are important to them in RP and what's not. I also think, for that reason, preference pages are helpful. If I didn't already know John and I favor different levels of description, I might have tried to play with him and then we'd both have been disappointed. Preference pages can sometimes save players that experience.
There's my three cents. Off to get ready for school. Remmy
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Ivy LaShanko
New Member
P.I. for Pierce Inc & Freelance Fire Dancer
Posts: 14
Status: Single
Other Half: ... nonexistant? ...
About Me: ♠♦♣♥TROUBLE♥♣♦♠ that's her no matter how you slice it, whether she's looking into you, or you've hired her, trouble follows, finds and fractures around the investigator. Sometimes, it's worth that big Capital T, and sometimes... it's not.
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Post by Ivy LaShanko on May 9, 2013 14:00:02 GMT -5
'no writer, in any book, types in a character to let you know when a paragraph is done'. I meant to comment on that reply, while true, I can't help but feel inclined to point out the writers of said books aren't writing a story with multiple authors, each taking up a character in that story-- much less writing it live with one another.
That is all.
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Post by Thalia Deacon on May 9, 2013 19:02:49 GMT -5
I'm going to mostly abstain as my original opinion is a bit tainted, however, while I think some of what he said is biased - I agree with most of what he said. I assume most people with huge long flists/rabbit holes that make Hentai look vanilla are only after smut RP. [Sorry, if I want smut, I'll go to the hubby and avoid stains on my keyboard] I could give a shit less about sex RP as I generally only do so with my husband. I actually do have a posting limit [as I generally play on AIM, the posts are longer] but less than 1.5 AOL posts and I'm bored because it's too little and I have no interest in the barest, simplest posts. Any more than 5 and I get bored because I wait too long. Anyway, nuff said. I agree most times Flists/rabbit holes are a turn off and I avoid people with them. If people can't cobble me together 2 IMs I avoid them. In fact, I avoid most people as a lot of them are total butts.
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Post by Thalia Deacon on May 9, 2013 19:06:47 GMT -5
On another note.. I like turtles. :attempts to break the tension:
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Post by Alec Sutton on May 10, 2013 3:01:38 GMT -5
Yep. I fall into the category of someone John wouldn't/doesn't play with. I don't have a F-list or a Rabbit Hole but I have my own page that goes into detail of my thoughts on different sexual positions in RP. It also, on that same page, explains what I seek in detail which is undoubtedly probably in the "inundated with facts" category.
In real life, I can see for myself whether or not someone's pants are ironed, how many buttons are buttoned, whether or not their wearing a belt and what color or material it is. But in RP, I'm reliant on the other player to give me that information. And because most of the characters I play are detail oriented, I need those details in the RP to play my character to her full potential, which ever one she may be at the time.
... I think where the other piece of the puzzle lays, is a player's "Assumption Comfort Zone."
For example, John's sample writing "Once assured the navy suit he wore was up to his exacting standards, he entered the establishment." He, as a player, is comfortable allowing the other player to fill in the blanks on what his "exacting standards" might actually translate to. And of course, in that character's case, having seen the show White Collar probably helps a lot. lol. But in either case some players, those little details are irrelevant. Like Tu, I'm a "whatever floats your boat" kind of player, though I'm notably less inclined to play with players who don't provide me some of the detail I'm looking for.
In the above example, I wouldn't be comfortable, as the player on the other side, writing a response without knowing what those standards actually were. I'd be thinking...
Does that mean he's wearing a full three piece suit? Tie? Is the tie blue too? Is the shirt navy blue or white? Are they all the same shade of blue or complimenting different shades of blue? Tailored to fit him? His shoes shined or that not part of the suit in his eyes?
You get the idea. I think each player has a different level of what they're okay with. What details are important to them in RP and what's not. I also think, for that reason, preference pages are helpful. If I didn't already know John and I favor different levels of description, I might have tried to play with him and then we'd both have been disappointed. Preference pages can sometimes save players that experience.
There's my three cents. Off to get ready for school. Remmy
The problem is, that most people put all of that information in one post. It does not have to be put all in one post. The picture, provided everyone is not writing a novel, can be painted over a series of posts. Like an artist laying oils onto canvas, it is not done all at once. You prime the canvas, and then layer in the color. That however, cannot and will not happen if one has to wait an hour to get a word in edgewise. By that time I have lost interest, and more times than not have either fallen asleep, started playing with the dogs, started browsing for or working on images, or God help us all, World of Warcraft has garnered my attention. I'm here to have fun, to relax and unwind. Not be bored to the point of falling asleep, which is what long posting does to me, every time. And again, as for the pages on sexual preference, it's a matter of what you want to project with such. The overall impression given by such pages is that all the author of them wants is smut. Now, that isn't meant to say that all who have such, are in it solely for the cyber play and I think this is where Laurie took offense. As stated in the editorial, which for the record, since Laurie seemed to get pissed over the fact that it was 'just my opinion and not fact', an editorial is an opinion piece. I was not quoting statistics, I was stating my opinion, from my experiences, gained from where I stand in role play. The majority of players whom I have seen with such lists I found in the rooms that are specifically for smut. Hence my opinion on such. Now as far as characters go, you can't get much further on the opposite ends of the spectrum than Alec and Neal. What Neal may find offensive, or at the least distasteful, Alec would probably find amusing. Do I list the details of which is which in the profile of either? Not at all. In Alec's profile, I will admit to having a blurb of pet peeves, and I did post the editorial on Neal's. Which as I said under Neal, I have been guilty of these things from time to time. Alec and Neal both have a smattering of what you will find when looking at them in their profile, but in so far as their preferences? No. In fact when I tossed Neal into the OC story line, the question of sexual preference and orientation I marked as personal, and left it at that. That, in my opinion, should be found out in play. It is what we're here for, isn't it?
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Post by Alec Sutton on May 10, 2013 3:13:02 GMT -5
On another note.. I like turtles. :attempts to break the tension:
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